Intensity
Posted by Chevalier on May 21, 2010
I’ve been thinking recently about the issue that crops up occasionally, and irritates some of the ladies to no end — the fact that some clients seem incapable of believing that a lady might actually enjoy his company and feel some degree of connection.
What I’ve been thinking about lately is what contributes to that belief by some guys. Maybe cynicism. Maybe insecurity and self-doubt. But I wonder whether some of it is not really a belief that there’s nothing there — even though it may be expressed that way — as much as a perception of a difference in the level of intensity. And that might be a result of the circumstances more than the guy’s insecurity and self-doubt.
It’s almost a truism that in any civilian relationship (actual or potential) the fondness, attraction, whatever you want to call it — is never in exact balance. One party is almost always more interested than the other. We don’t deal with a binary choice of “no romantic interest” and “my one true love, with whom I will always be deliriously happy.” It’s a continuum. And both parties are rarely at the same point along the continuum. “Unrequited love” is an extreme example, but it’s far from the only one. There likely is, and always will be, some difference in the intensity of feelings.
If that’s the case in civilian relationships, why should or would we expect anything different in cases of P4P connection?
And I suspect that on the average the intensity of the connection is less on the part of the ladies than on the part of the clients.
Partly because the ladies are (probably have to be) more cautious about maintaining boundaries, not just financial and physical but also emotional. Even if the lady is single and the client is married, there are still a lot of other reasons that moving beyond those boundaries would be harmful for her. Either that, or the ladies are more cautious because the clients are less cautious. How many ladies have you seen comment publicly about the need to maintain boundaries with their clients? How many clients say the same thing? How many ladies have mentioned having stalkers? How many clients have had stalkers? (Again, I’m talking about on average.)
Partly because of the numbers. There are a lot more P4P clients, I imagine, than there are escorts. Ladies (if they are going to survive and stick around in this business) probably has more appointments/dates per month than clients do. I suspect that carries over into the realm of regular, recurring appointments/dates as well. That is, a client might see 3 or 4 different ladies “regularly,” however one defines that, while a lady might see many more clients “regularly” using the same definition. (Again, I’m talking about on average.) A connection is more likely with regular, recurring appointments/dates than with someone you see only a couple of times — whichever way the cause-effect flows. But if a lady feels a connection with 15 different clients, is the intensity of the connections the same as that of a client who feels a connection with 3 different ladies? I suspect the number of connections tends to reduce the intensity of each one, meaning that on average ladies might experience the connection less intensely than the clients do.
Admittedly, this is just a supposition and I may be subconsciously biased by my personality type. Introverts tend to become tired, rather than energized, by personal interaction. So to some extent we may tend to “ration” how strongly we feel in those interactions, because we only have so much to give. Extroverts might experience all of that completely differently — the average intensity of a connection might actually increase as the number of connections increase. I have no idea and am too lazy to research further. 
——————–
Personally, I don’t buy into the strong version of the argument that some clients make, that there is no connection. I think some degree of affection or fondness or even attraction is within the realm of possibility. Not all ladies will feel that with respect to all clients, of course, but in some instances, yeah, I believe in bounded authenticity. Not all, or even a majority, of the ladies I’ve seen clicked with me, but I’m confident some did/do, to at least some degree. But I also assume that most of the ladies with whom I’ve felt a connection didn’t feel the connection as strongly as I did. I might be “just another client” (and that’s OK too). And even if I were a regular/favorite client whom they were very glad to see and always enjoyed time with . . . but not as glad as I was or enjoy as much as I did.
Thais said
Personally, for me the intensity is lower because I am simply not attracted to most of my clients the same way as they are attracted to me.
I like them as people, I connect to them, I enjoy the sex we have and the company – but more often than not, I don’t lust after them. In most cases, I don’t look at the client and think “God, I want *him*!”, whereas I am pretty sure they experience that feeling when looking at me.
Clix said
I think part of it is also professionalism. When I go out to eat, I try to treat the restaurant staff well, and I enjoy a bit of conversation here and there… but I don’t for a moment try to convince myself that they’re having as much fun as I am. It would be unprofessional for them to just let go and chill; they have a responsibility to be attentive and observant, and to keep the restaurant moving smoothly. I have no such responsibility (beyond, naturally, human decency!) because I’m the client.
Chevalier said
Hi Thais,
That’s a good comparison. It fits into the whole idea of “choice.” Civilian life is still subject to stereotypes of gender roles, such that we expect men to ask ladies for a date rather than vice versa. But in P4P, clearly, it’s the client who makes the choice of whom to see. The ladies may choose not to see someone, but even if they initiated the appointments, most could not restrict themselves to clients for whom they lust, just based on the need to earn a living. Hopefully most clients they will like and enjoy, along the lines of what you describe, but the attraction won’t be as strong as for the clients who decide to pay those hard-earned dollars.
Chevalier said
Hi Clix,
That’s an interesting point, although of course P4P is considerably more, ahem, personal. Not to mention that a lady usually isn’t dividing her attention for that hour between me and several other “tables.”
The financial aspects do cloud things, because the client is paying and the lady is earning a living. That’s always an inherent limitation, and why the common comments about “try not paying and see how much she really likes you” are so annoying. Economic conditions govern the relationship and limit it.
A real comparison — what the client may try to convince himself of — is really a counter-factual, and those are always hard to evaluate. If the lady were comfortably well-off, so that she didn’t need to work for a living, would she date him? Be interested in NSA civilian sex? I suspect in almost all cases the answer will be “no,” and in only a few cases at the most perhaps “yes, but not as interested as he is.”
Some guys would like to be more than the P4P equivalent of “the pleasant guy at one of the 10 tables I wait on” (and the client doesn’t always achieve that), but it’s unrealistic to hope for more than “someone I genuinely look forward to spending time with [as long as he pays].”
Chevalier said
Looking back at the original entry, perhaps I overemphasized — to avoid offending or sounding cynical — the whole question of justifying and rationalizing why the ladies aren’t as attracted to the clients as vice-versa. Realistically, that’s pretty much a given. I doubt whether many of the ladies who protest that they do enjoy time with their clients would challenge the idea that their attraction is less intense. There are some occasions where, yes, they might be attracted enough to seek non-compensated, NSA sex (even assuming that counter-factual, that they’re comfortably well-off and don’t have to work for a living). But not very many such instances, I would wager.
Actually, the reason that I posted the blog entry (at least, I thought) was not to argue something with which few if any would disagree — the disparity in intensity — as much as to say “the difference in intensity probably explains what some of your clients erroneously express as your lack of any connection to them.”
hobbyist said
Chevalier; “I’ve been thinking recently about the issue that crops up occasionally, and irritates some of the ladies to no end — the fact that some clients seem incapable of believing that a lady might actually enjoy his company and feel some degree of connection.”
Probably the guys who most vocally express these opinions are carrying some past life-experience baggage which has resulted in a surplus of cynicism, or perhaps more specifically been burned by becoming too close to someone in P4P in the past (which if you peruse P4P boards you will discover is actually quite common).
Personally I’ve gone back and forth on this issue over the years as my own outlook has altered due to experience and lessons learned.
Now I’m somewhere in the middle. IMO its probable, even likely… that some ladies develop a kinship with some (or a rare few) of their favorite clients, but I don’t think its all that common, as the ladies seem better than the guys at keeping a more business-like even keel to their outlook.
Chevalier said
I’m more positive than you, I think, based on personal experience/observations. But we may be comparing apples to oranges. I only consider the ladies I’ve seen several times (hard to establish a connection on one visit); you may be thinking in terms of all visits. I may define “some degree of connection” at a lower level than you do — and not inconsistent with maintaining those business-like boundaries or even keel. I may define “common” lower than you would — considering, for example, that a .333 batting average in MLB is pretty damned good.
But since it’s not something one can really measure or do a valid statistical survey for . . . it doesn’t make sense to worry about comparisons anyway. Even if we do see it differently, there’s no way to know for sure which of us is closest to that unknowable objective reality.
hobbyist said
Chevalier: “But we may be comparing apples to oranges”
Probably also relates to definition and viewpoint.
If you are talking about friendship or mutual respect or ‘liking’ the other AS A PERSON, or simply respecting and on some level admiring them… “yes”.
If talking about a full-blown romantic attraction or feelings developing… that would be a “no”.
chevalier said
I think of “connection” roughly in terms of the former, albeit a bit stronger than the norm in non-P4P business relationships.
I think the latter is very rare — but also something that neither party should be looking for in P4P.
If a client thinks the ladies in P4P don’t connect with him in the latter sense — odds are very high that he’s right, but if that makes him feel bad or he’s complaining to the ladies about it, he should leave P4P. Nothing wrong with wanting to be loved, but look for it the right place. In P4P, he’ll be unhappy and so will the ladies he sees.
My opinion. YOMV
hobbyist said
chevalier: “I think the latter is very rare — but also something that neither party should be looking for in P4P.”
Agreed, but we state the obvious, obviously in P4P to consciously and deliberately “look” for such a connection is a fool’s errand – that’s P4P 101.
My point though is that IMHO even your first type of connection is much less common than you think for the ladies than it is their clients
But as you stated… this is only speculation and impossible to prove quantitatively.
Chevalier said
Less common for the ladies than for the clients? Sure. While I wouldn’t try to charcterize the relative size of the gap, the existence of a gap seems intuitively obvious. If I’m not fond of a lady — feel that type of connection — it’s possible but less likely that I will see her regularly. If a lady feels neutral toward me — not that sense of connection but also doesn’t find time with me particularly unpleasant — she likely won’t refuse to see me again. I’m sure some ladies I’ve seen several times have fallen into that category.
Less common for the ladies than I think? Well, I wouldn’t put an extremely high percentage on it even for a lady’s regular clients. And it’s based primarily of course on my perception from personal experience. Whether that’s an accurate reflection of ladies’ reaction to regular clients in general depends on whether: (a) my personal experience is “typical”; and (b) I accurately perceive the ladies’ reaction to me. I have no reason to doubt (a), although maybe I’ve just been lucky and of course the small sample size of ladies I’ve seen regularly would reduce “confidence level” statistically speaking. But certainly I might err with respect to (b). Perhaps I am subject to perception bias — subconscious desire to be liked, subconscious desire to think well of others (i.e., the ladies being fond of their regular clients would reflect well on their characters), or just overly optimistic by nature.
Or maybe not. No way to know for sure.
With respect to the unknowable, we simply choose what to believe. Faith, in a way. I choose, with respect to this question, a positive outlook. As long as I do not take risky actions in reliance on that outlook, that positive outlook — I think — contributes to my happiness.
But I could be wrong.
hobbyist said
Chevalier: “If a client thinks the ladies in P4P don’t connect with him in the latter sense — odds are very high that he’s right, but if that makes him feel bad or he’s complaining to the ladies about it, he should leave P4P. Nothing wrong with wanting to be loved, but look for it the right place. In P4P, he’ll be unhappy and so will the ladies he sees.”
So the bottom line opinion of a fair, balanced, sober, unbiased, neutral observer basically is: “Gee, too bad, life is tough sometimes, so sorry for you… You lose”?
Chevalier said
*shrug* I aspire to that, obviously don’t always achieve it. How close I come in any particular situation is a question for others.
Pretty much, yeah. I’m mildly sympathetic, but it’s primarily their choice. Don’t walk into a casino and plunk down $10,000 on number 18 at the roulette wheel if: (a) you don’t realize that the odds are very long against you; and (b) you can accept losing with a reasonable degree of equilibrium. Disappointment at losing is understandable; extreme disappointment seems counter-productive. Why subject one’s self to that?? It’s everyone’s choice, and I wouldn’t make a rule that they couldn’t, but I would certainly recommend against it if the almost inevitable loss is going to make one that unhappy. But if they prefer the loss and pain and anguish . . . well, have at it, but I’m not overly sympathetic if they put themselves in that position by taking a risk at such long odds.
Call me a cold-hearted bastard.
hobbyist said
“Call me a cold-hearted bastard.”
I don’t think its being cold-hearted to expect someone to takesome responsibility for making a serious error in judgement.
However, I do think its a bit excessive or dismissive to so cavalierly suggest sending someone packing. (Not that you are the only person who seems to feel that way.) It seems like an extreme solution.
Some of the problem may be that people tend to make assumptions about others without knowing the details of their situation… For instance, perhaps the person in distress was a in a very unsatisfactory place before they took the “undue risk” and felt they had little to lose. If they hadn’t acted… would things necesssarily have worked out any better?
Alternatively – the rest of a personn’s life could be a very long time – perhaps they don’t really fancy becoming a monk for the duration. Why is the assumption made that a person’s life in this situation is going to be ‘better” if they leave P4P… It would seem to most likely to be the opposite… they still would have the same problems, but after leaving it would have no erotic or physical dimension. Given the coice between having a really sucky life and a not-so-sucky one I think most people would chose the latter.
“Nothing wrong with wanting to be loved but look for it the right place”
Even if a person were out looking in the right place (wherever that is?) would it be unreasonable to want to have some pleasure and satisfaction in one’s life WHILE looking? As above, one might be looking for a very long time.
Since life isn’t a perfect situation or state it ends up being a series of choices or accomidations we all have to make. Perhaps the decision might be made that while P4P is certainly not ideal for some people, they can still tolerate and accept its limitations.
“Disappointment at losing is understandable; extreme disappointment seems counter-productive”
Like many things, dissapointment can be cumulative. One dissapointment, even a major one can usually be shouldered if taken on its own. However a series of major ones, all falling within a short period of time can become crushing.
Chevalier said
Actually, I said
I’m not sending anyone packing; merely recommending that they make that choice for themselves.
—————
Because I was thinking in terms of a person (no one in particular, just a generic/abstract person) who frequently complains or appears upset that the ladies don’t feel any sort of romantic attachment to him. That was the very premise of the entry to begin with:
The reason the ladies perceive those clients that way is because they talk about it to the lady, sometimes obsessively. Why do they do that, if it doesn’t really bother them? (I assume the ladies are perceptive enough that if the guy happens to mention it once in passing, rather than frequently, it wouldn’t bother the ladies enough to bring the topic up. By the time a lady complains, it’s likely gone far beyond a single casual mention in passing without any apparent distress. See this example by Carrie.)
Whereas, if
and they said to themselves, “Well, I knew it was a long shot; didn’t work out but I’m no worse off than I was before I tried P4P” . . . I wouldn’t expect them to make a point of complaining that their affection for the lady was unrequited.
There are some ladies of whom I’ve very fond and I think it’s extremely likely that they are not anywhere near as fond of me as I am of them. Not because I’m a worthless lump, just because those long odds are inherent in P4P. But I’m also not bothered by it, and I very rarely mention that directly to a ladyfriend. I can
I wouldn’t recommend that people like that leave P4P, at least not for that reasons. I was thinking of and discussing the people who can’t accept it. And, yes, I think they’d probably be happier if they left rather than continuing to subject themselves to what evidently pains them. And the ladies.
hobbyist said
“And, yes, I think they’d probably be happier if they left rather than continuing to subject themselves to what evidently pains them. And the ladies.”
While we may live in a society which supposedly supports, forments, and highly values freedom of expression, and many people by nature tend to be open and forthcoming about their motivations. opinions, and feelings, perhaps at least in certain cases it is better to be more misleading, ‘dishonest’, circumspect.
If not told, these ladies likely would have no clue about the inner thoughts, feelings, and motivations of their clients. While its sad, perhaps silence is indeed golden, discretion is indeed the better part of valor, and what they don’t know won’t distress them.
Chevalier said
Although I would still recommend that a client who feels that bad about it leave P4P, rather than just stay but keep quiet. Just as I would recommend that an escort who is not just unsatisfied but down right miserable about P4P should leave the business, even if her clients didn’t realize her misery (or worse, didn’t care — and there are some clients like that). I prefer a Stoic attitude toward minor stuff, but if an activity is making someone really miserable, it makes sense to me to stop it. (Similar, for example, to a woman in an abusive relationship or marriage.) Maybe that’s just my personal preference for a low drama, peaceful life over subjecting myself to angst and misery.
hobbyist said
Well Chevalier…
I could be clueless and wrong about this too…
But IMHO its all relative…
No offense to Carrie or other ladies who have expressed these reservations to you, but I believe they may have overreacted to some more or less casual/made in passing comments by these “generic/abstract person”(s) you mention.
After all, life is full of such situations… For instance, yeah, I miss the 70K job I used to have and it pains me GREATLY that I have a much more deprived lifestlye now than I one did, having a lot less money to spend. BUT, I still keep the crummy job I have because its better than having none at all…
And,,, I REALLY MISS the kewl sports car I used to have, it was the apple of my eye back in the day, but not wishing to walk I make due with my pathetic old jalopy…
And… I wish I still had the 250K 3500 ft 2 story house I used to have as well, but since I don’t want to live in a cardboard box or out in a tent, I make due with the humble little digs I reside in now…
And… moving beyond the “abstract” to my personal situation, thanks for not taking it upon yourself to decide “what’s best for me” like some folks in the hobby did once “to help me out”, as they weren’t living my life they had NO RIGHT to take it upon themselves to decide this for me, and IMO it was VERY ARROGANT of them to think they they could. Re: your topic, comparing my current situation to 1991-92 when I was involved in the hobby, (the most pleasant passtime I’ve ever been involved with), I know without reservation that I’m much LESS happy now than I was when I was seeing girls.
Thanks for this post and the link to Carrie’s thread, it was very educational. It honestly never would have occured to me that a lady in P4P would be that pained or distressed by a few casual comments made by her clients. I wouldn’t have guessed they would care that much what some dude who was paying them for their time was thinking. As I’ve mentioned before, I’m no longer active in P4P. However, I try to stay positive and keep hope alive that my current situation is a temporary one and that I might someday be able to return to P4P, although not in the high-profile way I once was involved… If I ever do return, having learned my lesson it will strictly be in a UTR fashion and the women I see won’t ever know that they are seeing ‘hobbyist’, I’ll just be one more anonymous client to them, and I certainly won’t be joining/commenting/posting on any more P4P sites, I learned my lesson in that regard as well. In addition I won’t make the mistake of saying anything ‘controversial’ in passing conversation to the ladies I see either.
Chevalier said
It isn’t just thinking. It’s comments they make, or otherwise outwardly manifesting a significant degree of unhappiness. Do you like being about someone who is frequently negative or unhappy? I sure don’t. The ladies don’t either. At least those ladies who see the client as a person rather than just an ATM. And I continue to think there are more of those than you apparently think is the case.
I also sincerely doubt it’s just a few random comments. Most successful escorts have a good level of “emotional intelligence” and are good at reading people. And few would lightly give up a source of regular income.
Working with clients or around colleagues who have a pessimistic or negative outlook on life? Not pleasant in virtually any situation. And in the intimacy of P4P, even worse.
It may still be “best” for a negative person to work at X job or patronize Y business. But it may not be best for everyone around them. I run into such people at times. If it’s more than a rare occurrence, at some point I want to avoid them.
*shrug* My perspective. YOMV
hobbyist said
C,
So, “better to have not loved at all…”
“than to have loved and lost”"?
Notice the end few words of both statements above…
“not loved at all”
“loved and lost”
So what ‘positivity’ can come from those two? I’d really like to know.
And people wonder why someone might be unhappy afterward?
Also… “Neagative?” “Pessimistic outlook on life”???
Drawing some pretty broad assumptions there on ONE incident, ONE girls opinion… as you say YMOV.
Chevalier said
You know what, I don’t consider either of those as positive outcomes and frankly I don’t really care which someone chooses. Everybody can assess the risks themselves and make their own choice. Take an incredible long shot even though it will almost certainly result in pain, or don’t put his or her self in that position and experience a different pain — figure out which is least painful, and go in that direction. I may have an opinion in some instances on what would be best for someone, and I might offer advice, but it’s their life and their choice, not mine.
As long as they keep it to themselves and don’t inflict their pain on others.
But what I do not think P4P clients should do, if they cannot accept the inherent limitations, is to continue in a fashion that subjects others around them to that unpleasant atmosphere. That’s what some of those guys do. I think it’s inappropriate, in picking the least bad situation for themselves, to inflict discomfort on others. Experience all the pain they want, but keep it to themselves. And if they can’t keep it to themselves, stay away from that other person or don’t complain when that other person avoid them. I think anything less is selfish on their part.
And as far as
Frankly, that’s bullshit. If Sam is perfectly happy and the ultimate optimist but others perceive him as negative and pessimistic and therefore dread being around him, it’s the latter that’s important. Our inner mental state is merely an abstract and the only thing that really matters is how it is expressed and perceived. Attitude and how one interacts with others, like beauty and (to some degree) civility, is in the eye of the beholder. And that’s what those judgments amount to: “this guy talks and acts in such a way that I find it unpleasant being around him.” By definition, her opinion is the only relevant one in the context of whether she wants to continue to see him. And if several people feel the same way about Sam, that tells us something about him as well.
Just as whether I’m a nice guy or an asshole from my perspective is irrelevant. What matters is how someone else experiences contact with me. If they think I’m an opinionated, arrogant curmudgeon . . . that’s what is relevant and it’s entirely appropriate for them to avoid me. (And I make it easier by posting here mostly rather than on P4P boards. No one is forced to come here and read my opinions.) And if a lot of people conclude that I’m an opinionated, arrogant curmudgeon, that tells us something about me as well.
We have no right to have people treat us based on the way we perceive ourselves. Any expectation to the contrary ignores human nature. I may want to be treated a certain way, and think I should be treated that way, but that doesn’t mean that someone who doesn’t treat me that way is necessarily wrong.
Finally, between the three of us — you, me, and Carrie — she’s the only one with first hand experience (on repeated occasions; it was not “one incident”) and her assessment therefore is entitled to much more credibility than mine or yours. What basis do you have for challenging that and implying that she’s wrong? I’ve seen nothing to indicate that she is overly sensitive about those types of things. And I damned well believe that there are a lot of “negative” people with a “negative outloook” in real life (because I’ve run across several of them); I don’t know why anyone would think that there are no such people in P4P or that the person Carrie dealt with isn’t one of them.
Ditto with other ladies who have commented about unhappy, obsessive, or angry clients. If Sally thinks of Sam that way, that doesn’t mean that Mary should or will — but even if Mary doesn’t, that doesn’t make Sally’s judgment wrong; it merely makes it personal.
hobbyist said
OK, I told myself I wasn’t going to respond anymore and was done with this, but after reading your reply I see I do need to clarify a few things.
And then I’m done, outta here.
“What basis do you have for challenging that and implying that she’s wrong?”
Apologies to Carrie if it came across that I was referring to her specifically. As you youself said earlier “I was thinking in terms of a person (no one in particular, just a generic/abstract person)” (or escort in this case). In Carrie’s specific case, of course she had every right not be around someone who was making her uncomfortable.
For the reasons you observe, if I was still involved in P4P, yes, someone like Carrie would be a lady an individual with my type of persona would best stay clear of. Such factors are why ‘I turned over a new leaf’ when I returned to P4P in May 2003 after a several month ‘involuntary’ hiatus and stopped seeing the GFE-type girls in favor of PSE-types… Besides the philospohical disconnects, once the fourth wall was broken and I clearly saw the whole GFE thing was nothing more than cleverly packaged fiction and academy award-worthy characterization used as a means to generate revenue… Well it didn’t interest me any more. On the other hand, that a woman (while yes… being paid for her time) might become stimulated to the point of actually enjoying herself and getting excited… well that is far less intellectually dishonest and more believable to me. In addition, even if I were to return in future, I doubt I would ever see ANY girl more than once.
“I don’t know why anyone would think that there are no such people in P4P or that the person Carrie dealt with isn’t one of them”
I never said that, however you are correct in your statement that you and I weren’t there, only Carrie was.
“If Sally thinks of Sam that way, that doesn’t mean that Mary should or will — but even if Mary doesn’t, that doesn’t make Sally’s judgment wrong; it merely makes it personal.”
THAT was exactly the point that I apparently failed to make, that its unfair to generalize the perceptions of one specific lady in one specific case into a wider indictment against one of a ladies (ex) clients. Pehaps a client may see any number of other ladies, and none of them report similar problems. YES, that ladies judgement IS personal. So even given that the lady feels the way she feels, at MOST its one isolated case of incompatability, in fairness not worthy of condemnation by an entire P4P community. Or should be – the point I’m trying to make here is that in the case of my past history things didn’t work out that way.
“Take an incredible long shot even though it will almost certainly result in pain, or don’t put his or her self in that position and experience a different pain — figure out which is least painful, and go in that direction.”
Almost seems like you are saying that certain people by nature or predestination have no chance… they are doomed to fail and thus bottom-line are f**ked. If so, that’s an incredibly negative outlook.
Personally I tend to believe that most people react to the vicissitudes / ebb and flow of life like spiritual litmus paper. If bad things happen, they tend to be sad. Good things… they will be happy. They are simply reacting in kind to the environment in which they are placed. I find this viewpoint to be much less judgemental and guilt inspiring, and it frees one of the concept that he / she OUGHT to act in a certain way. People react to what they perceive as personal tragedy in different fashions. Does Carries ex-client demonstrate the outlook of a wuss, evince depressive tendencies, or show a lack of coping skills because of the way he acted? Perhaps… Or perhaps not.
“We have no right to have people treat us based on the way we perceive ourselves. Any expectation to the contrary ignores human nature. I may want to be treated a certain way, and think I should be treated that way, but that doesn’t mean that someone who doesn’t treat me that way is necessarily wrong.”
Again you are correct – we have no individual control over how others perceive us. The only control I’ve ever been able to exert over how others treat me is to:
- Attempt to become unmoved by their opinions, as by caring about what they think I granted them power over me. Become immune to caring and I remove that control.
- Remove myself from the company of those demonstrating hurtful or arbitrary condemnation or dislike. This strategy worked very well for me on ASPD from 2002 onward, probably mainly because not only did it remove me from an unpleasant situation, but ALSO accomplished exactly what my critics desired, expeditious removal of an individual who wasn’t acting in the way they required him to act.
Chevalier, I never got the hearing or to make the points I wanted back in the day. In the several years I have been posting on your blog, I have come to feel that I exorcized my demons from that time and said all I want to say.
Its readily apparent that a gulf exists between my outlook and viewpoints Re: life in gerneral and P4P specifically… and my place within both of those realms. I realize now that I am never going to convert or win over anyone to seeing things my way, just as I am never going to see myself in the way others obviously do.
Accordingly, it appears that its time for me to move on to other pursuits.
Best of luck with the blog and all your future endeavors, Hobbyist signing off…
Chevalier said
Rather melodramatic, isn’t it? At least, I’ve almost never experienced anything that I would characterize as “fiction” or “acting” or “intellectually dishonest” as opposed to within the realm of normal friendly customer relations in any business. Certainly not to the point of a broad generalization about “the whole GFE thing.” But I obviously don’t interpret “the whole GFE thing” the way you do. In the distinction mentioned above
the latter is something no rational client should assume; the former I would characterize as a “connection”; and I consider “GFE” broader than “connection.” I’ve seen a lot of ladies with whom there didn’t really seem to be much of a connection, but that doesn’t mean — to me — that they’re not GFE. They certainly didn’t bullshit me about respect, admiration, liking me as a person. The vast majority of ladies I’ve seen have avoided any more than the normal marketing fluff you expect in any business transaction, whether it’s P4P, a personal trainer, a masseuse, etc. With escorts, it’s be like those other personal services. Or perhaps more akin to a first date with someone you don’t know very well, or even a blind date. You’re in that interactive mode where you’re exploring and determining whether this is a connection, being very positive and putting your best foot forward. There isn’t, always, a connection although you may still sleep together and may continue to date occasionally with a lower level of expectations. In some ways, a “GFE” treating me very pleasantly is not significantly different from a first date trying to make a good impression. I wouldn’t characterize the latter as dishonest; neither would I characterize the former that way. I might not see either again if there wasn’t a connection, but that’s a different question.
I still think it’s a difference in intensity; the very topic this entry started with.
But you, and any other reader, are always free to disagree. It’s not as though I have much control over that.
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To tell you the truth, I’ve always wondered whether you’re being too melodramatic here as well. Obviously I have no way of knowing for sure; I didn’t experience what you did. But in my (admittedly different) experience and observations, it’s exceptionally rare for something to rise to the level of condemnation by an entire P4P community.
First, because very few things could cause such condemnation. Hell, I once pissed off Tabitha by something I said; she was really angry and didn’t speak to me for about six months as I recall. But Ashley Ash, one of her best friends in the business, continued to see me on a regular basis with no qualms whatsoever. Very few people in P4P let one person’s experience with X — unless truly outrageous — affect how they will or won’t deal with X. Most ladies won’t decline to schedule with X just because one or two ladies don’t like being around him. Or switch gender: most clients won’t refuse to see X just because one or two other clients didn’t consider her GFE or don’t want to see her again. Even if, hypothetically, eight years ago, Roadking and foX and Deuce (and no one else in the Dallas ASPD community had anywhere near as much influence as they did) started telling ladies that it was best to avoid seeing me because I wanted to get too close and could maintain an even keel — I’m fairly confident that well less than 1/3 of the independent ladies back then would have refused to see me. Some ladies I wanted to see might refuse to see me, but it would be relatively few and there would be plenty of other options. There were a fair number of guys around who had (legitimately?) bad reputations whom some ladies would not see, but most ladies would.
Second, because I was reading Dallas ASPD regularly by mid-2001, joined by the end of 2001, was a fairly active participant on the boards and saw a lot of ladies — and I never heard of any condemnation. I don’t recall anyone — including the lady in question — ever even mentioning anything about you to me privately. (And yes, some ladies over the years have complained about specific “bad clients” to me by handle.) I don’t recall any public discussion of you or your behavior, certainly not anything that was significant enough to remember. And if you suffered “condemnation by an entire P4P community,” I would expect to have at least heard something about it.
Not welcomed into a particular clique? Sure. Ostracized by a particular clique? Also possible. But who gives a damn about that?? That happens to most of us. I was never part of the “Saturday breakfast” group; didn’t hang out with the “cool kids.” So what? I got cross-wise (at least temporarily) with two of the most popular Dallas independent escorts of their era (Tabitha and Giddyup Casey). So what? I am sure that there are several little cliques of hobbyists within the P4P community who think of me as ridiculous and pathetic. So what? I was never “best buddies” with fubar, CPI, St.Chris, Jarod, Ragnar, or SP Hunter; I don’t think I’ve ever met surge, coolguy, GripItRipIt, PatB, or PhilLanderer; I met caddyman only once, briefly. [Note: if anyone reads this whose feelings are hurt because they are an influential member of the community whom I didn't name -- sorry about that, just slipped my mind and/or I don't keep up enough to know who the "cool guys" are. Consider yourself included.]
I expect that most of the people in any community are going to be completely uninterested in (or even unaware of) me and some are not going to like me. That’s normal. I might feel differently if I suffered “condemnation by an entire P4P community,” but that’s pretty damned rare.
Maybe that did happen to you. As I said, I wasn’t in your shoes and maybe I wasn’t very observant back in 2002 or 2003. So I don’t know that you’re blowing what happend out of proportion. But I do wonder at times, without knowing all the background and details, whether you might have overreacted and now might be overly melodramatic.
Of course, arguably I overreact and am overly melodramatic at times myself.
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If it wasn’t already clear from the context of the entire discussion, no, that’s not what I was saying. I was talking specifically about people who are made miserable by a particular experience . . . but continue to subject themselves to that same type of experience, making not only themselves but others around them miserable as a result. If someone experiences something that makes them miserable, assesses the situation, and decides to avoid the thing that makes them miserable . . . those are not the people about whom I was talking.
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Well, there’s that at least. Glad you made progress; living with demons is bad shit.
Good luck.